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Author Topic: Talking about Chakat "closed for Chakat lovers."  (Read 12059 times)
Dea M Smith
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2010, 02:17:32 AM »

oh i been meaning to ask but can you tell what the meaning of Hir and Shi is? is that like her and his?
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2010, 02:22:51 AM »

Hey, YK! Thought I'd pop in after a month-long, self-imposed, writing/reading/reviewing hiatus (since no one was reviewing during November. A writer gets lonely in the quiet sometimes. T-T)

Not to be rude or anything, but having a mythical or made-up creature as a main character IS a little Mary-Sueish in itself, since they're not really part of the mainstream/subculture that is the furry fandom (as far as I can tell, anyway.) Still, I suppose with something relatively new introduced, there will be some attention, whether it's negative or positive.

I gotta say, though I may not share the same love of Chakats as you, or other people, I do know how hard it is to make a character seem different without their flaws being too overly dramatic or creating a certain bias towards one or more protagonists. I've been trying to work on that with my monkey character, Syn (from "End of Order", story and characters © by me, btw). Don't think it's going too well, cuz I tend to put the most personality in him, but as the story fleshes out, I hope to have a cast of well-rounded kidanimal...hybrids.

Anyway, from my perspective, you seem to be off to a good start with that, but the main goal is to keep it consistant. I wish you the best of luck! And that some of it rubs off on me! (^_^)

I hope I at least sound like I'm making sense, cuz sometimes I confuse myself...Me and my habit of lengthy reflections.

>.>

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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2010, 06:05:47 AM »

oh i been meaning to ask but can you tell what the meaning of Hir and Shi is? is that like her and his?
That is the gender neutral terms for him/her/it. When someone is intersexed, they are both a he and a she, a him and a her. Him +her=hir. She + him/his/etc=Shi.
It is used in the english langauge because gender neutral pronoun of It can be construed as offensive. Take a gelding, it's not a he due to lack of testicles (male reproductive organs) and clearly not a she, so it's an "IT."

Also, it grows tiresome for writers who are at the mercy of politically correct editors to keep inserting into every sentence "He/she, (s)he, him/her." etc.
But it's mostly used to discuss third sexed persons (Think hardcore feminism with a dash of Peta) and you get this to cover transgender/transexual/intersexed/etc.

TL/DR: PC word for someone who is/claims to be/is intersexed/third sexed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

As I member of the LGBT community, I get your reasoning but goddamn, being intersexed is more of a medical statistical anomally to the point where changing the language the langauge to be PC is just annoying!
/rant
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2010, 08:14:03 AM »

Um, a gelding is so a he, K9, just like a spayed cat is a she, to the extent that people use gendered pronouns about animals at all (for some reason you English-speaking people tend to do that a lot less than Swedish does). Don't be silly.

Also, calling "shi" the gender-neutral term is rather silly. There's a buttload of possible sets of pronouns people use; Doove himself at least used to state in the introduction to chakats that the reason they use "shi" is in part because it's closer to female than male and chakat gender identity at large tends to be "hermaphrodite with female bias". Likewise, the Chakasa universe fan-made (I think?) sex-shifting skunktaur species uses "hy" due to generally having a male bias. Both of those have the drawback that people might well choose to pronounce them "she" and "he", thus creating massive confusion.

Which is why a lot of people who play or use hermaphrodites use "zie" or some other variation further from conventional pronouns, minimizing the risk of confusion. (I admit I have a bad habit of using "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun, largely replacing "it"; I also tend to refer to Sythyry as "she" when I trip up for no apparent reason, while some other hermaphroditic characters become "he" when I trip. There are a lot of factors that affect perceived gender, and half of them aren't conscious on the part of the person doing the percepting.)

KM, log into one of the furry MUCKs sometimes and you'll see how mainstream chakats have gotten in fandom over the years. For better or for worse. I do have to disagree with your assessment that made-up creature automatically pushes things towards being Mary-Sue-ish; if the character is the only one of its kind that becomes more of a risk, but a fictional society of virtually only made-up species doesn't need to be perfect in all regards.

Not that everything has to be equal. It just has to be plausible, and everything falling pat into place tends to strain the suspension of disbelief of most readers past the age of, like, five.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2010, 01:34:40 PM »

Um, a gelding is so a he, K9, just like a spayed cat is a she, to the extent that people use gendered pronouns about animals at all (for some reason you English-speaking people tend to do that a lot less than Swedish does). Don't be silly.
Agreed. If some deranged Italian impresario took a liking to you, K9, and decided to turn you into one of his castrati, would that make you any less of a man?

I never really understood how "shi"/"hir" were supposed to distinguish hermaphrodites, because in all honesty, they only seem to make sense on paper. Try speaking them out loud - your mouth naturally gravitates towards "she"/"her" (defeating the purpose) or else pronounces it the right way (what is the "right way"? Is it "shi'h"/"h'rr"? "Shy"/"heer"?) and makes you cringe. It also complicates things if one of the speakers has an accent, so says "shih"/"hurr" normally instead of "she"/"her" - but uses an indistinguishable pronunciation for "shi"/"hir". Consider!

OBLIVIOUSLY GENDER-CHAUVINIST PERSON: So now, I'd like to introduce our next speaker. Shuh, uhm, she's from Beijing, and led last year's acclaimed--

FOREIGN OPPRESSED HERMAPHRODITE: It's "shi'h", yu twit! Not "shih"!

OGCP: Uhm, that's what I said. *thinks* "She".

FOH: No, it's "shi'h", as in "Ess - Itch - Eee"! Not "Ess - Itch - Eh"!

OGCP: Eh?

FOH: Oh, bruddy hair. I'm not spikking h'rr anymorr. *storms out of auditorium*

"Zie" is a fine enough pronoun by me, the only disadvantage being that if you speak one of the Germanic languages, it kinda-sorta sounds, like, pretty much the same as "she", so again, defeats the purpose. But anyway. Maybe borrow something from a language that naturally has no gendered pronouns, or invent a land that is so abstracted from reality that it has no need for pronouns in the first place. Orbis Tertius, anyone? Tongue
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Dea M Smith
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2010, 06:55:38 PM »

Sits in back row with open eyes" mmmm" raises hand" So your saying that by adding and taking away few latters from us we can point out the sex between two. It's like the roman alphabet and some east asian words. But then again most of it dats back to around BC and fully put into work in AD. i dont know the years sorry
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2010, 08:20:13 PM »

Just a note to all of you confused about Shi and Hir, I'll attempt to explain.

Chakats generally are NOT offended if you accidentally switch to She and Her, as, like Mungo said, Chakats identify themselves as hermaphrodites, but with a noted proclivity to femininity, hence the notion (though wrong) that all chakats are female would likely not offend them. The only thing they take to offense is calling them the genderless "it".

Also, the correct pronunciation, in case you are wondering, is "shay" (as in Shame) and "Herr" (think the german "Herr" or "Mister"), I've heard it pronounced with or without the h. Zie is also a common convention for those who have trouble saying shi and hir, but as Reiter pointed out, this is very similar to exactly the same as German "sie" so this is rather pointless, at least in Germanic Regions.
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Dea M Smith
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2010, 08:49:49 PM »

Okay I'm starting to understand now Cheesy And i'm about done reading most of the den's stoies and some of it is good you guys need to take a look Cheesy
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2010, 09:09:30 PM »

The only thing they take to offense is calling them the genderless "it".
Understandably so.

FAHTER: Mario, Mario, don't look! It's the chakat widda booms and the deek!

MAHRIO: *looks* It's pretty! Can we keep it?

(Fun fact: I have a friend who actually thought "booms" were the slang word for breasts.)
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Dea M Smith
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2010, 09:44:12 PM »

The only thing they take to offense is calling them the genderless "it".
Understandably so.

FAHTER: Mario, Mario, don't look! It's the chakat widda booms and the deek!

MAHRIO: *looks* It's pretty! Can we keep it?

(Fun fact: I have a friend who actually thought "booms" were the slang word for breasts.)


Haah Thats funny. But theres a hole list of names so i'll hold back on that. lol

"A wild Chakat Appears!"

"oh no!!"

Dea chooses Zelda'mon

Zelda'mon Attacks with zelda's lullaby

wild Chakat is dazed

dea uses poke'ball

Beep beep beep

poke'ball unable to be used wild Chakat wakes out of dazed and uses vixen looks on Dea and Zelda'mon.

Dea and Zelda'mon is dazed

A other  trainer  comes along.


"join the battle or forget about and keep talking about things on chakat."
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2010, 01:13:30 AM »

Still, the gender neutral thing runs into the same problem as the transgender speech has, The english language and culture is based on  two genders. A common gag in tv when a transgender person is or has switched genders is the figuring out of gender pronouns.
"He err she is here and he? She? brought her? his? stuff?"
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Dea M Smith
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2010, 08:54:24 PM »

thats true. from what o been reading they hate it when you call them "it" And sometimes they like being called Shi all the time. But now lets move on. I noicte that the Chakat have a big incest thing going.  It came to me when i notcie since that dont follow that hole gender thing it seems like anyone can bed or mate. it comes from mostly when they enter the first heat they have. then you have the hole birthing party.
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2011, 02:18:56 AM »

If I remember right, generally speaking "shi" is simply a pronoun for herms, "hir" being another form of the same pronoun.  They're pronounced as "she" and "her" though the "i"s seem to make all the difference when in writing.
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« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2011, 05:42:42 PM »

According to Doove, proper pronunciation is actually "shay" and "herr", though why that'd be is beyond me. This is actually one major reason I much prefer zie/zir for non-chakat hermaphrodites with a hermaphroditic gender identity - I can say it without it sounding really weird.
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« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2011, 02:58:38 PM »

According to Doove, proper pronunciation is actually "shay" and "herr", though why that'd be is beyond me. This is actually one major reason I much prefer zie/zir for non-chakat hermaphrodites with a hermaphroditic gender identity - I can say it without it sounding really weird.

Personally, I don't find shi and hir that hard to pronounce. And I don't know about anyone else, but I would never say "zir", that sounds like some Hindi name or something (I would say zie, at the expense of it being confused with German she or formal you)
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