FurRag forums
July 20, 2017, 10:43:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]
  Print  
Author Topic: Talking about Chakat "closed for Chakat lovers."  (Read 12036 times)
Dea M Smith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 276


Welcome to my world. The World of Darkness


View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2011, 12:10:47 AM »

ture. I find it as just some other word from a other place in the world. lol but i been on his site and been readin all his work and well you need to  read it is all i got to say. lol
Logged

quoting_mungo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 446



View Profile WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2011, 09:43:21 AM »

Personally, I don't find shi and hir that hard to pronounce. And I don't know about anyone else, but I would never say "zir", that sounds like some Hindi name or something (I would say zie, at the expense of it being confused with German she or formal you)

"Hard to pronounce", maybe not. But "hard to pronounce as distinct from she/her without using non-English phonemes, as well as having totally illogical pronunciation". For a minimal pair, take the word "ski". It's pronounced "skee", not "skay", so "shi" being pronounced as "shay" makes no sense. Likewise, "fir" and "her" have virtually indistinguishable vowel sounds, so "hir" being pronounced like "hair" (which would be the English-phoneme equivalent of "herr") is similarly illogical.

Saying "zir" sounds like a name in another language and therefore shouldn't be used as a pronoun makes no sense to me. You do realize that Han Solo's first name is a pronoun in a language that predates Star Wars by hundreds of years, right? The important part is not conflicting with other words in the language that's being spoken.
Logged

Yukigo Kurosaki
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 140


View Profile WWW
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2011, 08:27:33 PM »

Whoever said English had a set of phonetic rules? English is, quite honestly, a stupid language, being that it has so many blatant irregularities. I know there are several words that are pronounced in a completely illogical manner in relation to their spelling, so it stands to reason that "shi" or "hir" could be vulgarized into an illogical pronunciation. I personally think that people are looking too deeply into this pronoun issue. Sure, I would maybe think of a different pronoun if I created those characters, but I did not, so I follow his fictional standard.
Logged

Time is the best teacher; unfortunately, it has the habit of killing its pupils.
Reiter
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 640


is a writer, dammit!


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2011, 09:27:31 PM »

Yes, but the irregularities are a product of borrowed words or else past historians and linguists who tried to "emphasize" the etymological roots of certain words (e.g. "isle" instead of "ile", apparently to make it resemble its Latin ancestor "insula" more closely; similarly, "island" instead of "ieland"). So there's a logic to those irregularities. On the other end of the spectrum, Shaw once proposed that we "reform" English so only one spelling/letter-group would correspond to one phoneme. The example he gave was ghoti, which of course is pronounced "fish": the gh- is the same as in "enough"; the -o-, from "women"; and the -ti as in "nation".

Perfectly logical, isn't it? Except it isn't.

The difference between Shaw's "spelling" and English irregularities is that the irregularities are the product of centuries of linguistic evolution, which, despite the eventual divergence in their pronunciation, still carried a pattern or consistency (e.g. you know "-i-" can stand for the sounds in "ice", "lit", and "fir", but not those of "aura", "Boethius", or "eau"; or that gh has a hard palatal sound at the beginning of a word, but an fff or p sound after -ou-). Shaw, however, picked his symbols arbitrarily - thus, we have no idea that the gh in "ghoti" should be pronounced as an f, because our prior knowledge of English tells us that *this should not be so*. Likewise, people unfamiliar with Doove or his writings *will* pronounce "shi" and "hir" as "she" and "her" because *that's what the rules of English allow for*. The -ay and -eh sounds are not represented (codified?) by the "i" symbol in English, thus it is illogical for anyone to conceive beforehand that Doove would have used *that* symbol for *those* sounds, *especially* considering their context is in English.

Personally, I also think the pronoun issue isn't that important - but keep in mind that it might puzzle your mainstream readers why Herm Character is so offended when Unigendered Character calls hir a "she". After all, isn't that what "shi" is supposed to sound like?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 09:31:26 PM by Reiter » Logged

Only presidents, editors and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial "we".
- attr. Mark Twain
quoting_mungo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 446



View Profile WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »

The pronoun issue isn't largely important when it's isolated to chakats, true. It makes them awfully difficult to discuss in a voiced conversation (I do *gasp* discuss furry shit by media other than typing on the Internet on occassion), but as you say, that's Doove's decision, silly as it is, and as he created the species, I'll accept it and move on. I generally also show people the respect of using the pronoun about others, on e.g. MUCKs, that they use themselves. (At least in poses. What my characters say is in-character and a whole different barrel of fish.)

I may be touchy about it because I find I'm rarely shown the same courtesy in return. Also because I'm an English major and while there are words I have issues with (just ask the boy how I tend to react to French loan words especially), I'd like to at least keep things sticking to the English phonemes. I even have an accent when I put isolated Swedish phrases into an English conversation.
Logged

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.14 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!