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Author Topic: Authors Deserving Attention  (Read 10238 times)
Jacky
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 06:09:39 PM »

The "red pen wielder" moniker was for when there was a private critique group hosted here. That moved to AWRF, which as you know is now defunct, so the label doesn't mean a lot any more.

My goal when reviewing stories is only to help. I'm no writer, I just read what like to read. I never trash anyone's work, and if they get that impression then I have failed to achieve my goal. Now, I'll grant you, that particular review that you got was bad. To say it comes across as insensitive is an understatement. But that's just one review from one person, and judging by the disparaging attitude you have for this whole site, you've already made your mind up that his view = everyone's view. It's most certainly not.

P.S. I find it hard to believe that he hijacked your email account. And don't think for one second I'm defending him, by the way. I just severely doubt it.
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poisonpen
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 01:16:11 AM »

In regards to your statement:
“Will you condemn me if I say that, as a reviewer, I will most likely never review heterosexual erotica or heavy dystopia, because I am likely to be biased against these?”

 I have no problem with you stating that you will likely never review these types of stories, I WILL condemn you if you say there is no need for anyone to write stories containing these themes.  Which is EXACTLY what Mr. Altivo has done. 

I never claimed he has to change his stance as a reviewer because he is an Admin, anyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong, pig headed or narrow minded they may be.  The point is he actively discourages people from putting sex scenes in their writing, which bolsters my point that among the Royalty on this site anyone that writes sex scenes in their novel is a low life second class citizen.  The fact that you so blindly come to his defense bolsters the impression that you Red Pen Wielders and Admin stick together no matter what.  LOL

Although as a reviewer I still think he is overstepping his bounds with his no sex stance.  As a reviewer you are supposed to base your critique on the value of the story, not on whether or not you like the fact that it has erotic content.  If you don't like stories with erotic content you should recuse yourself from judging it or judge it based on merit, not on whether you like porn or not.  For example I would have absolutely no interest in reading a lesbian love story, not that I have anything against lesbians but because it does absolutely nothing for me.  But I wouldn't review it and say it was a horrible story because it had lesbian sex scenes in it.  I also wouldn't tell them not to use lesbian sex scenes “as a crutch. Develop real, three dimensional characters. (lesbian) Sex is never essential to that, nor to an active plot line.” as Mr. Altivo is wont to do.  You CAN develop real three dimensional characters and active plot lines in stories that have lesbian sex scenes.  Plenty of mainstream writers have done so in fact.

As you can see this statement also demonstrates his faulty logic. The presence or absence of sex scenes in a story is completely independent of three dimensional characters and deep plot lines.   Sex scenes, three dimensional characters and active plot lines are not mutually exclusive.  So his statement is COMPLETELY wrong if you want to be technical about it.  That is not my opinion, that is FACT.   A skillful writer can have these things regardless of the content, a poor writer will not have them also regardless of the content.

And I believe in nearly every one of my posts I've asked what exactly is a Red Pen Wielder and no one has answered me.  I guess it's a big secret known only to Admin and to Red Pen Wielders...  LOL
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Jacky
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 08:06:16 AM »

And I believe in nearly every one of my posts I've asked what exactly is a Red Pen Wielder and no one has answered me.  I guess it's a big secret known only to Admin and to Red Pen Wielders...  LOL

I guess you missed my post telling you exactly what it is LOL
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Erkhyan
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2013, 08:23:12 AM »

And I believe in nearly every one of my posts I've asked what exactly is a Red Pen Wielder and no one has answered me.  I guess it's a big secret known only to Admin and to Red Pen Wielders...  LOL
As Jacky mentioned, the post right before yours contains a concise yet complete answer to that question.
The "red pen wielder" moniker was for when there was a private critique group hosted here. That moved to AWRF, which as you know is now defunct, so the label doesn't mean a lot any more.



As for the rest… why is it difficult to believe that too many writers are using sex as a crutch? Yes, it’s possible to have three-dimensional characters and sex in the same story, but a lot of people are using the latter to compensate for the lack of a former. I even saw one story (which I admit I liked) that had interesting, nicely developed characters… which then turned into the most basic and stereotypical  “X fucks Y” scene in the last chapter, pretty much ignoring the intricacies of their relationship from earlier.

On the other side, I recently followed K.M. Hirosaki’s Shorts for Summer series, which had what I think is the largest spectrum of examples of the importance of sex in a story: there were several stories where the characters existed only for the sex, at least one story where the sex scene was integrated into the characters’ development, and one where the characters’ development was done during an extended sex scene. The first kind is wildly prevalent among furry erotica writers, the second is rare enough to be noticed, and the third… well, I applaud whoever manages to pull it off well.



I’m not a “literary” reviewer. I’m not out to correct the writer’s technical mistakes (beyond basic spelling and grammar, about which I am rather strict). I’ve  never even studied things like storytelling, narrative structures, or anything like that. I just consider myself as a demanding reader, and my reviews will always be meant to read that way: as the opinion of a reader.
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poisonpen
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 01:30:37 AM »

This is in response to Jacky

That was my bad on the Red Pen Weilder post. Yes I had missed it because I hadn't noticed that the thread had run to a second page so I didn't see it.  But it still took until the second page before anyone addressed the question.

In response to your statement:  “My goal when reviewing stories is only to help. I'm no writer, I just read what like to read. I never trash anyone's work, and if they get that impression then I have failed to achieve my goal.”

I will take you at you're word for that although you have never reviewed any of my work (not that I have asked or that I am asking you to, I have had enough reviews by Red Pen Wielders, thank you very much) and I haven't read any of your other reviews.  I have only just begun to get some other feedback from posting on this site and none of it has been technical just readers saying they really enjoyed the story or chapter.  On SoFurry most of the comment sections of my stories or chapters are almost as large as the stories.  We have a great time my comment sections and I get quite a bit of constructive criticism there which I appreciate.  I very rarely get testy with any of the commenters on SoFurry.  The only ones I fly off the handle on are ones that tell me that I shouldn't espouse the philosophies that I do in some of my chapters (I know it's hard to believe that there can be serious philosophical themes in stories that contain sex scenes, but despite the claims of Altivo, it can happen).  .   

Then you stated:  “Now, I'll grant you, that particular review that you got was bad. To say it comes across as insensitive is an understatement. But that's just one review from one person, and judging by the disparaging attitude you have for this whole site, you've already made your mind up that his view = everyone's view. It's most certainly not.”

And you are the first person on this site to actually say his review was inappropriate.  And to be brutally honest at least up to and including this point I have been given very little reason to believe it is not the view of the majority on this site.  I didn't come to this site because I needed a platform for my writing.  Although I am fairly new to writing I have a fairly large following on SoFurry, my stories have over a quarter million views so I really didn't need more exposure.  My stories there get more views in the first 2 days than they get here in a couple of years.  The reason I posted on here was because I was told by some of my SoFurry readers that I should post here because members were helpful and friendly, neither of which have I found to be true.  In the first year they were on here only two things happened, I was ignored or brutalized.  Which is why I haven't continued to post my two most popular series on this site, if readers wish to continue reading they can follow them on Sofurry. 

Then you finished with:  “P.S. I find it hard to believe that he hijacked your email account. And don't think for one second I'm defending him, by the way. I just severely doubt it.”

I see...  So you aren't defending him but you're calling me a liar? 
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poisonpen
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2013, 02:23:10 AM »

This is in response to Erkhyan

You wrote:  “As for the rest… why is it difficult to believe that too many writers are using sex as a crutch? Yes, it’s possible to have three-dimensional characters and sex in the same story, but a lot of people are using the latter to compensate for the lack of a former. I even saw one story (which I admit I liked) that had interesting, nicely developed characters… which then turned into the most basic and stereotypical  “X fucks Y” scene in the last chapter, pretty much ignoring the intricacies of their relationship from earlier.”

First of all my main complaint wasn't with the “using sex as a crutch” statement.  It was the statement that followed it:

"Don't use sex scenes as a crutch. Develop real, three dimensional characters. Sex is never essential to that, nor to an active plot line."  That at the very least implies that you shouldn't use sex in stories.  Altivo followed this with:

"Very, very few of the writers who continue to garner respect years after their work appears in public are writers of erotica. In fact, the only ones that come to mind are noted for writing subliminal erotica or stories in which the erotic content is based on innuendo, inference, and things that take place behind the scenes."

So he comes right out and states that good writers don't write sex scenes.  And it comes off as very self-righteous and sanctimonious.  Which in my opinion seems to be the prevailing attitude of the "Royalty" on this site.

I try to write many of my stories so they would make sense and be worth reading even if the sex takes place behind closed doors (Although at times I write pure escapist erotica and I make no apologies for that.  There is a time and a place for all kinds of writing.).  I don't know how successful I am at that because as a beginning writer I realize I am a work in progress.  But I do work hard at improving my writing.

You continued with:  "On the other side, I recently followed K.M. Hirosaki’s Shorts for Summer series, which had what I think is the largest spectrum of examples of the importance of sex in a story: there were several stories where the characters existed only for the sex, at least one story where the sex scene was integrated into the characters’ development, and one where the characters’ development was done during an extended sex scene. The first kind is wildly prevalent among furry erotica writers, the second is rare enough to be noticed, and the third… well, I applaud whoever manages to pull it off well."

Then you obviously also disagree with Altivo then if you are reading furry erotica, because in his view the stuff shouldn't even exist.

I don't pretend to be as accomplished or polished a writer as Mr. Hirosaki.  I usually try to use sex to develop a bond between characters, although I will admit that sometimes it is just for fun.  But isn't that the way sex is in real life?  Hopefully I will get better at it, but I sure as hell am not going to stop writing sex scenes just to please his majesty Altivo.

I still find it amusing how you all come to each others defense.
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Altivo
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »

And I find it amusing that you seem to have nothing to do with yourself other than act as a troll.

If you dislike this site so much, why are you here?
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poisonpen
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2013, 06:02:56 PM »

A TROLL? Shocked  Such an accusation cuts me to the quick.  If I was trying to be a troll I would go to a site that at least has a live audience.  ROTFLMAO 

And I guess "seem" would be the operative word.  Even though I am terribly busy with the mayfly and caddis fly hatches in full swing, the bluegills just starting to get on the beds, taking care of my dogs and horses, my full time job and writing my own stories, 5 minutes here or there is not an extravagant amount of time to expend on such a worthy cause.

And I am so pleased that I have amused you.  I never thought I could provide such useful service to the Supreme Emperor and Grand Poobah of all things literary...   It must be a really taxing position with so much responsibility, I'm sure a little amusement will lighten the load.   I realize I don't have the talent or bloodline to be a Red Pen Wielder, but maybe I could be the Court Jester... 

Instead of questioning why I'm here you should be thankful I'm here.  My guess is that this is the most activity this forum has seen in years.  But my guess is that you only appreciate like minded people as subjects.
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Jacky
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2013, 06:33:36 PM »

Compared to SoFurry, this site is a quiet backwater. It's less likely you'll get the volume of reviews here as you do there. Sorry you got a bad review (in all senses of the word), but some people actually like the reviews they get here. I guess you just got unlucky.

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying I really doubt that he was the reason you lost control of your email account. I know him a bit, and if there's something he doesn't like, his usual strategy is to pretend it doesn't exist, rather than go after people.
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Erkhyan
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2013, 07:00:01 PM »

Then you obviously also disagree with Altivo then if you are reading furry erotica, because in his view the stuff shouldn't even exist.
Yes, I disagree with his view, I’ve always disagreed with it, but I’ve never felt the urge to create a huge scandal about it. It all comes to acknowledging that we all have our likes and dislikes. I’m glad that my #1 dislikes (“shoot the shaggy dog” and grim-dark stories) are not as prominent in the furry fandom, but I can tell you that I feel as strongly about these as Altivo feels about sex scenes. I know many people disagree with my point of view (for example, judging by the number of people who liked the Star Wars: New Jedi Order series), yet I don’t feel the need to attack them for not agreeing with me.

I still find it amusing how you all come to each others defense.
… because we’ve never jumped to each other’s throats for having differing points of view, and actually like to maintain a generally friendly atmosphere? Contrary to what you might think, we’re not some feudal society here, with overlords and lowly commoners. If you get the reference, consider us rather as something like the Companions of Whiterun.
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poisonpen
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2013, 08:35:06 PM »

This is in response to Jacky

Actually on SoFurry we don't get “reviews” we get “comments” which can be anywhere from one word like “great” to comments which are several pages long.  And to say you don't get the volume is a huge understatement.  I've had 7 “reviews” since I've been on this site while I've received 7012 “comments” on SoFurry. 

I never expected to get as many views here as on SoFurry, just the nature of the two sites and I understand that.  I just didn't expect it to be such a cliquish closed-minded group of people.  I expected that they would welcome new people in, but even before my “review” I never felt welcome here.  On the other hand the readers on SoFurry are much friendlier and made me feel like part of the family from the very first story I ever posted on it (which was ironically the one Reiter “reviewed”). 

Yes I guess I did get unlucky.  Just my luck to get my first review from a vindictive no-talent troll that has no business reviewing anybody.  I made it a point to read the stuff he has posted on this site and I would have been embarrassed to post it, and I'm just a beginner.

You say you “ know him a bit”, but you obviously don't know him well at all.  We went back and forth quite a bit on an e-mail account that I had set up just for that purpose, until he hinted that he had a surprise for me.  That was when the account that I use for Furrag was hijacked.  I'm sure he was quite amused.  If he was like you said he is I doubt he would have continued e-mailing back and forth half a dozen times.  I think you happened to see the public persona that he liked to project not the vindictive person (I had to stop my self from inserting a vulgarity there) that he really is.
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poisonpen
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2013, 09:09:43 PM »

This is in response to Erkhyan

For one thing challenging someone's edict about what should and should not be written is not creating a huge scandal.  I guess the problem is we are not talking about the same thing.  You are saying that Altivo has a right to dislike sex scenes in writing.  I totally agree with that.  What I disagree with is him telling others that they shouldn't write them.  People should write what ever they damn well want without the Supreme Emperor and Grand Poobah of all things literary trying to dictate the content of their work.  People should write the stories in their hearts and not be constrained by the wishes of others.  He has every right to not read them, but in my opinion no business trying to keep them from being written.

The only people on SoFurry that I fly off the handle at are the ones that tell me I shouldn't write something because it disagrees with their philosophy on whatever.  And I go from being a nice loveable easy going writer to someone that bites their head off.  That's only happened 3 times in the 7012 comments I've received on SoFurry.

You wrote
“I know many people disagree with my point of view (for example, judging by the number of people who liked the Star Wars: New Jedi Order series), yet I don’t feel the need to attack them for not agreeing with me.”

My point is that you appear afraid to disagree with the Emperor.  It took me this long to actually get you to admit that you actually disagree with his view.  Again I am not attacking him for disliking erotic content, I am attacking him for trying to enforce his dislike of erotic content on others to prevent them from writing erotic content.  That is something I find abhorrent.  And I would find it abhorrent even if he was trying to keep people from writing stuff that I dislike.

You wrote
“because we’ve never jumped to each other’s throats for having differing points of view, and actually like to maintain a generally friendly atmosphere? Contrary to what you might think, we’re not some feudal society here, with overlords and lowly commoners. If you get the reference, consider us rather as something like the Companions of Whiterun. “

One thing I would never accuse this place of is maintaining a generally friendly atmosphere.  That is just completely foreign to my experience here.  That being said I still believe that this is like a feudal society, you just don't notice it when you are one of the Overlords;- }
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Sasya
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2013, 05:13:51 AM »

Man, I wish I had 7012 comments on SoFurry.   :<  Either I need to write better, or I need to write more smut.  ^.^  Probably both.

Nobody on SoFurry has anything bad to say, but it's rare for anyone to have anything to say.  Generally, I think, that's why sites like this exist—to connect people who love to read (and write) with those who love to write (and read), in a format that encourages critique.  Granted I've managed to acquire only two critiques here on my story, but they were at least two very well-thought-out critiques.  SoFurry, on the other hand, has always seemed to me to largely cater to the fap audience.

Meh! ^.^

~Fox
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poisonpen
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2013, 07:06:43 AM »

I have to disagree with you about it being rare for people to have anything to say on SoFurry.  My comment sections there are full of helpful comments although some are just the “great story” type, but even those are helpful because it lets you know that the stories are working.  If you would like to see what I mean by the comment sections here would be an example of a typical comment section in a  chapter far enough into my novel in progress Earth's New Masters to allow for a fair amount of comments  https://www.sofurry.com/view/235505 .  I'm NOT suggesting that you read the story  just scroll down to the end and check out the comment section.  If you want to you can click on any of the other chapters, for the most part they have the same amount of comments. 

It is one of the things I really love about SoFurry is the almost instant and abundant feedback when I post a story.  Even though my stories contain erotic content most of the comments are plot-centric not fap-centric.  I'll admit I have worked hard to cultivate a good audience by always responding to every comment that gets posted and have developed a good rapport with my audience.  But on this site there is no one to work with.  The only in depth comment I've received on this one was insulting and not helpful at all.
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Sasya
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2013, 04:36:09 PM »

By contrast, I don't think I have any chapter on SoFurry with significantly more comments than my first: https://www.sofurry.com/view/245324

I'm not really sure why.  If there's something wrong with my writing, I'd hope someone would tell me... "insulting" or not.  Instead I've gotten little feedback, and only a sprinkling of comments on SoFurry... so it does very much go both ways.  Here, at least, I've had some meaningful conversations with various people about my story--as well as a fairly solid critique--but I do admit it's pretty dead.

I dunno.  Horses for courses? ~.^

-Fox
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